Comments on: IE 8, shooting browsers and what to do http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/02/25/ie-8-shooting-browsers-and-what-to-do/ Web development and Internet trends Thu, 20 Nov 2008 16:47:16 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: Robert Nyman http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/02/25/ie-8-shooting-browsers-and-what-to-do/#comment-219137 Robert Nyman Wed, 27 Feb 2008 08:52:12 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/02/25/ie-8-shooting-browsers-and-what-to-do/#comment-219137 BART, Yes, they better make things right and consistent in IE 8. Otherwise it's just a waste learning bout even more bugs and workarounds. BART,

Yes, they better make things right and consistent in IE 8. Otherwise it’s just a waste learning bout even more bugs and workarounds.

]]> By: BART http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/02/25/ie-8-shooting-browsers-and-what-to-do/#comment-219132 BART Wed, 27 Feb 2008 08:38:47 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/02/25/ie-8-shooting-browsers-and-what-to-do/#comment-219132 I agree with you about meeting MS in the middle. If IE8 is as standards compliant as the other browsers (maybe not 100%, but close), I'll use the meta tag. But, if IE8 is still full of bugs and misinterpretations, I will not use the switch and op out of IE8. I am not going to invest more time in learning new workarounds and hacks. This switch makes it easy to ignore any future buggy IEx. And that 's a good thing. I agree with you about meeting MS in the middle. If IE8 is as standards compliant as the other browsers (maybe not 100%, but close), I’ll use the meta tag.

But, if IE8 is still full of bugs and misinterpretations, I will not use the switch and op out of IE8. I am not going to invest more time in learning new workarounds and hacks. This switch makes it easy to ignore any future buggy IEx. And that ’s a good thing.

]]> By: Robert Nyman http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/02/25/ie-8-shooting-browsers-and-what-to-do/#comment-218638 Robert Nyman Tue, 26 Feb 2008 08:16:34 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/02/25/ie-8-shooting-browsers-and-what-to-do/#comment-218638 Thanks for your comments! Devon, Like Morgan, I see it from a business perspective as well. I work as a consultant, and if every web site I build will take longer, i.e. cost more for the customer, because of shortcomings and flaws in Internet Explorer everyone loses. I also believe in delivering in a good solid web browser and educating people. Just people have done things wrong doesn't mean we have to adapt what's incorrect forever. zcorpan, In my world, at least, if something unknown comes along, it seems like madness to offer it the most strict rendering, while a DOCTYPE truly asking for standards mode (such asn HTML 4 or XHTML Strict DOCTYPE) won't get it, unless it also has a <code>meta</code> tag. Steven, Yes, at a first glance it sounds like a good idea. I really need to ponder it a bit more, though. Thanks for your comments!

Devon,

Like Morgan, I see it from a business perspective as well. I work as a consultant, and if every web site I build will take longer, i.e. cost more for the customer, because of shortcomings and flaws in Internet Explorer everyone loses.

I also believe in delivering in a good solid web browser and educating people. Just people have done things wrong doesn’t mean we have to adapt what’s incorrect forever.

zcorpan,

In my world, at least, if something unknown comes along, it seems like madness to offer it the most strict rendering, while a DOCTYPE truly asking for standards mode (such asn HTML 4 or XHTML Strict DOCTYPE) won’t get it, unless it also has a meta tag.

Steven,

Yes, at a first glance it sounds like a good idea. I really need to ponder it a bit more, though.

]]> By: Georg http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/02/25/ie-8-shooting-browsers-and-what-to-do/#comment-218404 Georg Mon, 25 Feb 2008 22:50:43 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/02/25/ie-8-shooting-browsers-and-what-to-do/#comment-218404 As for stretching the use of a STRICT doctype as a mode-switch - getting the response: "This Page Is Valid -//W3C//DTD XHTML 100.0 Strict//EN!" and having browsers confirm they're rendering in 'standard compliance mode', makes it pretty clear how browsers and the validator handles some "unknown" doctypes. Not recommended, but it isn't like we're out of options here. As for stretching the use of a STRICT doctype as a mode-switch - getting the response: “This Page Is Valid -//W3C//DTD XHTML 100.0 Strict//EN!” and having browsers confirm they’re rendering in ’standard compliance mode’, makes it pretty clear how browsers and the validator handles some “unknown” doctypes.

Not recommended, but it isn’t like we’re out of options here.

]]> By: Steven Clark http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/02/25/ie-8-shooting-browsers-and-what-to-do/#comment-218348 Steven Clark Mon, 25 Feb 2008 21:03:11 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/02/25/ie-8-shooting-browsers-and-what-to-do/#comment-218348 Roger Johansson's post yesterday about an alternative idea. Why not keep the doctype switching and just change it a bit? "The idea is to keep using the doctype to switch modes, but require a strict doctype with a full URL for standards mode" is interesting. I like that idea too. http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200802/doctype_switching_for_ie_8/ That idea sits comfortably with me, too. Roger Johansson’s post yesterday about an alternative idea. Why not keep the doctype switching and just change it a bit?

“The idea is to keep using the doctype to switch modes, but require a strict doctype with a full URL for standards mode” is interesting. I like that idea too.

http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200802/doctype_switching_for_ie_8/

That idea sits comfortably with me, too.

]]> By: zcorpan http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/02/25/ie-8-shooting-browsers-and-what-to-do/#comment-218307 zcorpan Mon, 25 Feb 2008 18:55:18 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/02/25/ie-8-shooting-browsers-and-what-to-do/#comment-218307 <blockquote>However, it will deliver the content with standards mode if the DOCTYPE isn’t recognized (like HTML 5) or not widely used.</blockquote> I wonder how IE8 will check for this, though, given that IE6 and 7 just do substring matches of the doctype (for "dtd html 4.", "dtd html 4", "transitional//", and so forth). <blockquote>Anyone care to explain the logic in that for me?</blockquote>If the browser knows about HTML n, then HTML n+1 is likely using a doctype that is unknown to the browser. Therefore, using the best-effort rendering mode for unknown doctypes makes sense and is what other browsers do, too. <blockquote>Shouldn’t unknown DOCTYPES, just as documents without DOCTYPE, render according to quirks mode?</blockquote>No. <blockquote>Does this mean that if I refrain from having a DOCTYPE, that’s an option instead of the meta tag?</blockquote>No -- no doctype is not an unknown doctype, and no doctype has to trigger quirks mode for compat.

However, it will deliver the content with standards mode if the DOCTYPE isn’t recognized (like HTML 5) or not widely used.

I wonder how IE8 will check for this, though, given that IE6 and 7 just do substring matches of the doctype (for “DTD HTML 4.”, “DTD HTML 4″, “transitional//”, and so forth).

Anyone care to explain the logic in that for me?

If the browser knows about HTML n, then HTML n+1 is likely using a doctype that is unknown to the browser. Therefore, using the best-effort rendering mode for unknown doctypes makes sense and is what other browsers do, too.

Shouldn’t unknown DOCTYPES, just as documents without DOCTYPE, render according to quirks mode?

No.

Does this mean that if I refrain from having a DOCTYPE, that’s an option instead of the meta tag?

No — no doctype is not an unknown doctype, and no doctype has to trigger quirks mode for compat.

]]> By: Morgan Roderick http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/02/25/ie-8-shooting-browsers-and-what-to-do/#comment-218267 Morgan Roderick Mon, 25 Feb 2008 16:21:30 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/02/25/ie-8-shooting-browsers-and-what-to-do/#comment-218267 Devon, I am very much looking at IE from a business perspective ... and the facts are that IE is costing me and my clients a lot of money. As the web progresses forwards, and IE is falling farther and farther behind, those costs just rise. As a developer, I am now basing my business entirely on non-Microsoft products, as I've had enough of their stupid licensing rules, inability to fix even the smallest of issues, and their unwillingness to open up dialogue with the developers, who should be their best ambassadors in the market. If Microsoft can't or won't see the big picture here, then it's their loss. Devon, I am very much looking at IE from a business perspective … and the facts are that IE is costing me and my clients a lot of money. As the web progresses forwards, and IE is falling farther and farther behind, those costs just rise.

As a developer, I am now basing my business entirely on non-Microsoft products, as I’ve had enough of their stupid licensing rules, inability to fix even the smallest of issues, and their unwillingness to open up dialogue with the developers, who should be their best ambassadors in the market.

If Microsoft can’t or won’t see the big picture here, then it’s their loss.

]]> By: Devon Young http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/02/25/ie-8-shooting-browsers-and-what-to-do/#comment-218247 Devon Young Mon, 25 Feb 2008 15:35:11 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/02/25/ie-8-shooting-browsers-and-what-to-do/#comment-218247 Really, Microsoft doesn't care one bit about what developers need. Why should they? They are a business, which has to make a profit and please their customers. That's their priority. They don't want their customers to ask "Why should my site break when I upgrade my browser?", because from a software makers <abbr title="point of view">POV</abbr>, that really isn't user friendly and doesn't keep people around for customer loyalty. So <abbr title="Microsoft">MS</abbr> wants to release a product that will be technically an upgrade, but that will not affect their customers in any way. Us developers aren't looking at it from a business <abbr title="point of view">POV</abbr>, we're all looking at the good of the web...interoperability & stuff like that. The real question is....<strong>how do we get the <abbr title="Internet Explorer">IE</abbr> team to find a way to please their customers while helping the web?</strong> That's what we all have to figure out. Until we help them find the answer to that, <abbr title="Microsoft">MS</abbr> probably won't listen. Really, Microsoft doesn’t care one bit about what developers need. Why should they? They are a business, which has to make a profit and please their customers. That’s their priority. They don’t want their customers to ask “Why should my site break when I upgrade my browser?”, because from a software makers POV, that really isn’t user friendly and doesn’t keep people around for customer loyalty. So MS wants to release a product that will be technically an upgrade, but that will not affect their customers in any way.

Us developers aren’t looking at it from a business POV, we’re all looking at the good of the web…interoperability & stuff like that. The real question is….how do we get the IE team to find a way to please their customers while helping the web? That’s what we all have to figure out. Until we help them find the answer to that, MS probably won’t listen.

]]> By: Jeroen Mulder http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/02/25/ie-8-shooting-browsers-and-what-to-do/#comment-218239 Jeroen Mulder Mon, 25 Feb 2008 15:05:12 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/02/25/ie-8-shooting-browsers-and-what-to-do/#comment-218239 I am extremely reluctant to accept their proposal for IE8's default behaviour, but at the same time, I cannot help being excited about it. If the default behaviour of IEx is IE7, then there's absolutely nothing to stop them from fully adhering to web standards in super-standards-compliance mode. I'm with you on this one. I think I'll take it, but only if the first IE8 beta will blow me away. Considering it's supposed to pass ACID2, I am actually really looking forward to it :-) I am extremely reluctant to accept their proposal for IE8’s default behaviour, but at the same time, I cannot help being excited about it. If the default behaviour of IEx is IE7, then there’s absolutely nothing to stop them from fully adhering to web standards in super-standards-compliance mode.

I’m with you on this one. I think I’ll take it, but only if the first IE8 beta will blow me away. Considering it’s supposed to pass ACID2, I am actually really looking forward to it :-)

]]> By: Paul Deveaux http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/02/25/ie-8-shooting-browsers-and-what-to-do/#comment-218233 Paul Deveaux Mon, 25 Feb 2008 14:52:57 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/02/25/ie-8-shooting-browsers-and-what-to-do/#comment-218233 I agree with your assessment. What MS is actually saying is "don't reduce our market share" and "don't allow the web to be fixed." The problem is not that proper rendering breaks the web, it simply forces the authors/maintainers of poorly coded sites to actually update their pages. We need more education rather than a penalty for doing things right. I agree with your assessment. What MS is actually saying is “don’t reduce our market share” and “don’t allow the web to be fixed.” The problem is not that proper rendering breaks the web, it simply forces the authors/maintainers of poorly coded sites to actually update their pages. We need more education rather than a penalty for doing things right.

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