Comments on: Version targeting in IE 8, and an alternative path for Microsoft http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/ Web development and Internet trends Sat, 30 Aug 2008 00:01:16 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1 By: IE 8 will use Standards Mode as the default rendering - Robert’s talk - Web development and Internet trends http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-223152 IE 8 will use Standards Mode as the default rendering - Robert’s talk - Web development and Internet trends Tue, 04 Mar 2008 09:29:11 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-223152 [...] expressed my concern in Version targeting in IE 8, and an alternative path for Microsoft and IE 8, shooting browsers and what to do, and was even willing to compromise if they delivered a [...] [...] expressed my concern in Version targeting in IE 8, and an alternative path for Microsoft and IE 8, shooting browsers and what to do, and was even willing to compromise if they delivered a [...]

]]> By: IE 8, shooting browsers and what to do - Robert’s talk - Web development and Internet trends http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-218223 IE 8, shooting browsers and what to do - Robert’s talk - Web development and Internet trends Mon, 25 Feb 2008 14:16:36 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-218223 [...] It’s a recommended read, Jeremy’s a smart and eloquent man. I do think it’s vital that we try to convince the IE team why we definitely don’t want that. My suggested solution for Microsoft is described in Version Targeting In IE 8, And An Alternative Path For Microsoft. [...] [...] It’s a recommended read, Jeremy’s a smart and eloquent man. I do think it’s vital that we try to convince the IE team why we definitely don’t want that. My suggested solution for Microsoft is described in Version Targeting In IE 8, And An Alternative Path For Microsoft. [...]

]]> By: What’s Best for Web Standards? - Beast-Blog.com http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-197416 What’s Best for Web Standards? - Beast-Blog.com Wed, 30 Jan 2008 21:17:50 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-197416 [...] Version targeting in IE 8, and an alternative path for Microsoft by Robert Nyman [...] [...] Version targeting in IE 8, and an alternative path for Microsoft by Robert Nyman [...]

]]> By: IE8, Version Targeting, and the Ruckus it’s Causing - Monday By Noon http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-195355 IE8, Version Targeting, and the Ruckus it’s Causing - Monday By Noon Mon, 28 Jan 2008 14:03:49 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-195355 [...] Version Targeting In IE 8, And An Alternative Path For Microsoft by Robert Nyman [...] [...] Version Targeting In IE 8, And An Alternative Path For Microsoft by Robert Nyman [...]

]]> By: Robert Nyman http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-193528 Robert Nyman Fri, 25 Jan 2008 21:46:30 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-193528 Aldrik, Well, there are a number of alternative routes they could've gone with adding something more to distinguish mode, support etc, but personally I don't t adding anything more is the way to go. Aldrik,

Well, there are a number of alternative routes they could’ve gone with adding something more to distinguish mode, support etc, but personally I don’t t adding anything more is the way to go.

]]> By: Aldrik http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-193461 Aldrik Fri, 25 Jan 2008 20:02:39 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-193461 I think a proprietary css property perhaps could have been a better way to trigger compatibility modes rather than a meta tag (you know separation of style from content). I agree with Gerben and think that <em>another</em> opt-in approach can only hurt web standards. I also refuse to put anything in my pages that's going to course users to get a message saying they have to update their browser (and quite possibly go buy a newer version on windows), instead of seeing the site they came to view. I think a proprietary CSS property perhaps could have been a better way to trigger compatibility modes rather than a meta tag (you know separation of style from content). I agree with Gerben and think that another opt-in approach can only hurt web standards.

I also refuse to put anything in my pages that’s going to course users to get a message saying they have to update their browser (and quite possibly go buy a newer version on windows), instead of seeing the site they came to view.

]]> By: Bram.us » IE8 Mode? http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-193411 Bram.us » IE8 Mode? Fri, 25 Jan 2008 18:50:55 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-193411 [...] in the most recent ALA issue (got some time to read up?): #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10, #11, #12, #13 and - my favorite - #14. *phew* Spread the [...] [...] in the most recent ALA issue (got some time to read up?): #1, #2, #3, #4, #5, #6, #7, #8, #9, #10, #11, #12, #13 and - my favorite - #14. *phew* Spread the [...]

]]> By: Robert Nyman http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-192123 Robert Nyman Thu, 24 Jan 2008 10:14:13 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-192123 Thanks for your comments! I think, now or later, that Microsoft will have to scrap the old, and in with the new. The bulk of IE must be becoming unbearable. Netscape came to that point, with the advent of Mozilla and Firefox, and Microsoft will too. In my opinion, its better to do that now than later. The web evolves, and products can't be backwards compatible forever, especially not with invalid code to begin with. Here's to hoping that Microsoft will care about web professionals interested in developing good web sites, instead of those that made a non-successful attempt five years ago. Thanks for your comments!

I think, now or later, that Microsoft will have to scrap the old, and in with the new. The bulk of IE must be becoming unbearable. Netscape came to that point, with the advent of Mozilla and Firefox, and Microsoft will too.

In my opinion, its better to do that now than later. The web evolves, and products can’t be backwards compatible forever, especially not with invalid code to begin with.

Here’s to hoping that Microsoft will care about web professionals interested in developing good web sites, instead of those that made a non-successful attempt five years ago.

]]> By: 48-Hour Days » Blog Archive » Give Microsoft a Pat on the Back http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-191997 48-Hour Days » Blog Archive » Give Microsoft a Pat on the Back Thu, 24 Jan 2008 04:39:51 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-191997 [...] Version targeting in IE 8, and an alternative path for Microsoft [...] [...] Version targeting in IE 8, and an alternative path for Microsoft [...]

]]> By: » Blog Archive » The Version Targeting In IE8 Proposal - StevenClark.com.au http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-191862 » Blog Archive » The Version Targeting In IE8 Proposal - StevenClark.com.au Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:20:27 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-191862 [...] Robert Nyman’s Version targeting in IE 8, and an alternative path for Microsoft [...] [...] Robert Nyman’s Version targeting in IE 8, and an alternative path for Microsoft [...]

]]> By: » Blog Archive » Are You Pro Version Targeting in IE8? - StevenClark.com.au http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-191860 » Blog Archive » Are You Pro Version Targeting in IE8? - StevenClark.com.au Wed, 23 Jan 2008 23:14:40 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-191860 [...] Robert Nyman’s Version targeting in IE 8, and an alternative path for Microsoft [...] [...] Robert Nyman’s Version targeting in IE 8, and an alternative path for Microsoft [...]

]]> By: Steven Clark http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-191828 Steven Clark Wed, 23 Jan 2008 21:49:23 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-191828 My gut instinct is this isn't the way to go... I've rewritten this comment every which way and the problem is complex. I like the separate IE install suggestion but wonder if their issue with that isn't the tight integration with their OS? Also, with multiple installs, someone like Amazon with ecommerce customers will lose business if there was a requirement for multiple versions - most customers barely use email correctly and couldn't install multiple versions of a word document they wrote yesterday lol... but I think multiple versions side by side is something they should do. Eric Meyer's article on ALA was very balanced but I'm left with prickles of caution from his closing paragraphs - bloatware might be an issue if IE7 will be a part of IE14 for example. And the inevitable new bugs introduced with iterations of software, where's the guarantee the legacy support for IE7 won't be broken somewhere down the track so we end up with IE7 original rendering of some features and IE14 rendering of IE7... bugs are inevitable in this. It seems like a trend of the last year to dumb down to meet the market for web standards. HTML 5 to meet the Flickr case study on alternate text, for example. This time to placate IE. The business case makes sense on the surface but we have to remind ourselves that just because WaSP sanctions something doesn't make it the holy grail of web standards... there was another company that took a big hit from rebuilding their browser from the ground up by the way... When it comes down to it we're really talking about the reality that IE owns the show right? All that being said I do appreciate the other side of the coin. If we could rejumble a bunch of stuff today that gave us a working across the board web development industry tomorrow (IE that is not broken for us) then how much are we willing to pay? Because at the end of the day IE coming into line will eventually cost us one way or another. Micro-costs alone for fixing IE bugs on each project on a worldwide basis must be billions for the industry... Sorry for the long babble... at this stage I only have my gut feeling of "Danger Will Robinson, aliens approaching!" My gut instinct is this isn’t the way to go… I’ve rewritten this comment every which way and the problem is complex. I like the separate IE install suggestion but wonder if their issue with that isn’t the tight integration with their OS? Also, with multiple installs, someone like Amazon with ecommerce customers will lose business if there was a requirement for multiple versions - most customers barely use email correctly and couldn’t install multiple versions of a word document they wrote yesterday lol… but I think multiple versions side by side is something they should do.

Eric Meyer’s article on ALA was very balanced but I’m left with prickles of caution from his closing paragraphs - bloatware might be an issue if IE7 will be a part of IE14 for example. And the inevitable new bugs introduced with iterations of software, where’s the guarantee the legacy support for IE7 won’t be broken somewhere down the track so we end up with IE7 original rendering of some features and IE14 rendering of IE7… bugs are inevitable in this.

It seems like a trend of the last year to dumb down to meet the market for web standards. HTML 5 to meet the Flickr case study on alternate text, for example. This time to placate IE. The business case makes sense on the surface but we have to remind ourselves that just because WaSP sanctions something doesn’t make it the holy grail of web standards… there was another company that took a big hit from rebuilding their browser from the ground up by the way…

When it comes down to it we’re really talking about the reality that IE owns the show right?

All that being said I do appreciate the other side of the coin. If we could rejumble a bunch of stuff today that gave us a working across the board web development industry tomorrow (IE that is not broken for us) then how much are we willing to pay? Because at the end of the day IE coming into line will eventually cost us one way or another. Micro-costs alone for fixing IE bugs on each project on a worldwide basis must be billions for the industry…

Sorry for the long babble… at this stage I only have my gut feeling of “Danger Will Robinson, aliens approaching!”

]]> By: Gerben http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-191703 Gerben Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:59:37 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-191703 I think the version targeting is okay, but to get rid of the crappy IE rendering heritage they should make it opt-out instead of opt-in. Developers already had to fix sites to make them work in IE7. When IE8 comes out (lazy) developers only have to add a single meta IE=7 tag and they are done. I think this is a small sacrifice to make and it will make IE8, by default, behave like all the other standards compliant browsers. Also people new to the web, and not knowing about the meta element, won't have to bang their heads to their desks because IE isn't doing what all other browser are doing. I think the version targeting is okay, but to get rid of the crappy IE rendering heritage they should make it opt-out instead of opt-in.
Developers already had to fix sites to make them work in IE7. When IE8 comes out (lazy) developers only have to add a single meta IE=7 tag and they are done. I think this is a small sacrifice to make and it will make IE8, by default, behave like all the other standards compliant browsers.

Also people new to the web, and not knowing about the meta element, won’t have to bang their heads to their desks because IE isn’t doing what all other browser are doing.

]]> By: RobertDM http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-191682 RobertDM Wed, 23 Jan 2008 16:04:40 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-191682 My biggest concern is that it will fuel the non-believers of web standards to stick with their bad habbits. They will be confirmed in their belief that they don't need standards, just use version targeting and things are just fine. I'm also afraid this will be convienient for Microsoft: if they can get everyone to use version targeting, switching to newer browserversions will not reveal code deficiënties and therefore lessen the need for fixes. I don't really follow Eric Meyer's view on this on ALA where he is confident it will lead to quicker bugfixing. (but then again who am I ;-) ) My biggest concern is that it will fuel the non-believers of web standards to stick with their bad habbits. They will be confirmed in their belief that they don’t need standards, just use version targeting and things are just fine.
I’m also afraid this will be convienient for Microsoft: if they can get everyone to use version targeting, switching to newer browserversions will not reveal code deficiënties and therefore lessen the need for fixes. I don’t really follow Eric Meyer’s view on this on ALA where he is confident it will lead to quicker bugfixing. (but then again who am I ;-) )

]]> By: Martin http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-191665 Martin Wed, 23 Jan 2008 15:41:55 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-191665 I was soooo upset when I red about it at ALA. IE8 is a piece of crap, it doesnt work as napoleon dynamite would say. +1 for multiple installs of IE though i really see their problem, building an rendering motor for the web cant be the easiest thing to do... while on that subject check this out: http://ejohn.org/blog/sub-pixel-problems-in-css/ I was soooo upset when I red about it at ALA. IE8 is a piece of crap, it doesnt work as napoleon dynamite would say. +1 for multiple installs of IE though i really see their problem, building an rendering motor for the web cant be the easiest thing to do… while on that subject check this out: http://ejohn.org/blog/sub-pixel-problems-in-CSS/

]]> By: Lim Chee Aun http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-191622 Lim Chee Aun Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:14:22 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-191622 I agree as well that multiple installs of IE is essential. It may not be useful for users/visitors, but it will be for 'concerned' web developers and webmasters. Even though the process of 'upgrading' IE6-optimized or quirks-mode-optimized web pages to standard-compliant ones may be 'difficult' now, but after some time, once this is over, it'll be easy when *all* browsers have the same high level implementation of standards. I agree as well that multiple installs of IE is essential. It may not be useful for users/visitors, but it will be for ‘concerned’ web developers and webmasters. Even though the process of ‘upgrading’ IE6-optimized or quirks-mode-optimized web pages to standard-compliant ones may be ‘difficult’ now, but after some time, once this is over, it’ll be easy when *all* browsers have the same high level implementation of standards.

]]> By: Anthony http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-191617 Anthony Wed, 23 Jan 2008 14:06:38 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-191617 Great! Another rendering mode for IE... <blockquote cite="http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/"> IE 8 will behave exactly like IE 7, unless you specifically tell it to behave better</blockquote> Well, I hope that it will at least be the exact same rendering mode if you don't specify this meta tag. Moreover, why not specify IE8 that you want to use the IE7 rendering mode by specifying the meta tag, and without it activate this "super new now really standard mode", thus making the new mode the default one? Your proposition to be able to have multiple versions of IE side by side (officially supported by MS) would a major step in the right direction. I am not sure we will see it anytime soon... Great! Another rendering mode for IE…

IE 8 will behave exactly like IE 7, unless you specifically tell it to behave better

Well, I hope that it will at least be the exact same rendering mode if you don’t specify this meta tag.
Moreover, why not specify IE8 that you want to use the IE7 rendering mode by specifying the meta tag, and without it activate this “super new now really standard mode”, thus making the new mode the default one?

Your proposition to be able to have multiple versions of IE side by side (officially supported by MS) would a major step in the right direction. I am not sure we will see it anytime soon…

]]> By: Phil http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-191604 Phil Wed, 23 Jan 2008 13:56:22 +0000 http://www.robertnyman.com/2008/01/23/version-targeting-in-ie-8-and-an-alternative-path-for-microsoft/#comment-191604 Interesting ideas Robert, I particularly like the one about allowing multiple installs of IE. It would help with development and rolling software out to those companies with legacy systems that require ancient versions of IE to work. However, while mutiple installs may be a sufficient system for companies and legacy systems, this cannot be a good option for users. If you were surfing the web and a site gave you a "Please view this page in IE7" notice and you were using IE8, or 9, or 20, how long would you stick around for? I think the perspective actually has to be from a user in terms of this change. When IE7 "broke the web" there were developers panicking, but there were far more confused users. This is Microsoft's fault for not updating browsers and for getting standards wrong (I don't believe that other browsers should adopt this version targeting), so the emphasis is now on them to provide a solution that won't break anything for users in such a big way again. I think a lean, standards only IE8 would do that. Not forgetting that many sites out there don't follow standards and work based on browser quirks in the standards modes. In an ideal world, all sites would be coded to the standards and bringing out only one, standards compliant browser would fix the web. <a href="http://www.unintentionallyblank.co.uk/2008/01/23/version-targeting-for-ie8-developer-wars-my-thoughts/" rel="nofollow">I have more thoughts on my blog</a> Interesting ideas Robert, I particularly like the one about allowing multiple installs of IE. It would help with development and rolling software out to those companies with legacy systems that require ancient versions of IE to work.

However, while mutiple installs may be a sufficient system for companies and legacy systems, this cannot be a good option for users. If you were surfing the web and a site gave you a “Please view this page in IE7″ notice and you were using IE8, or 9, or 20, how long would you stick around for?

I think the perspective actually has to be from a user in terms of this change. When IE7 “broke the web” there were developers panicking, but there were far more confused users. This is Microsoft’s fault for not updating browsers and for getting standards wrong (I don’t believe that other browsers should adopt this version targeting), so the emphasis is now on them to provide a solution that won’t break anything for users in such a big way again. I think a lean, standards only IE8 would do that. Not forgetting that many sites out there don’t follow standards and work based on browser quirks in the standards modes. In an ideal world, all sites would be coded to the standards and bringing out only one, standards compliant browser would fix the web.

I have more thoughts on my blog

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