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	<title>Comments on: Web browser vendors are also responsible for accessibility</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.robertnyman.com/2005/11/28/web-browser-vendors-are-also-responsible-for-accessibility/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.robertnyman.com/2005/11/28/web-browser-vendors-are-also-responsible-for-accessibility/</link>
	<description>Web development and Internet trends</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 10:14:44 +0000</pubDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.1</generator>
		<item>
		<title>By: How to specify dynamic font sizes consistently with CSS - Robert&#8217;s talk</title>
		<link>http://www.robertnyman.com/2005/11/28/web-browser-vendors-are-also-responsible-for-accessibility/#comment-38947</link>
		<dc:creator>How to specify dynamic font sizes consistently with CSS - Robert&#8217;s talk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Feb 2007 08:57:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=210#comment-38947</guid>
		<description>[...] re some calculations and less readable/understandable code.  &#160;  Related reading       Web browser vendors are also responsible for access [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] re some calculations and less readable/understandable code.  &nbsp;  Related reading       Web browser vendors are also responsible for access [...]</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Firefox and Safari, implement the Zoom feature! - Robert&#8217;s talk</title>
		<link>http://www.robertnyman.com/2005/11/28/web-browser-vendors-are-also-responsible-for-accessibility/#comment-14175</link>
		<dc:creator>Firefox and Safari, implement the Zoom feature! - Robert&#8217;s talk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Oct 2006 09:42:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=210#comment-14175</guid>
		<description>[...] e happy, grateful and will spread the name of your product!  &#160;  Related reading       Web browser vendors are also responsible for access [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] e happy, grateful and will spread the name of your product!  &nbsp;  Related reading       Web browser vendors are also responsible for access [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Schriftgröße in Pixeln &#187; Peruns Weblog - Webwork und Internet</title>
		<link>http://www.robertnyman.com/2005/11/28/web-browser-vendors-are-also-responsible-for-accessibility/#comment-3933</link>
		<dc:creator>Schriftgröße in Pixeln &#187; Peruns Weblog - Webwork und Internet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Apr 2006 11:25:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=210#comment-3933</guid>
		<description>[...] chen Gedanken zu diesem Thema und habe diesbezüglich einige Beiträge, anderer Webworker zu diesem Thema gelesen. Ist es wirklich schlecht  [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] chen Gedanken zu diesem Thema und habe diesbezüglich einige Beiträge, anderer Webworker zu diesem Thema gelesen. Ist es wirklich schlecht  [...]</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Robert Nyman</title>
		<link>http://www.robertnyman.com/2005/11/28/web-browser-vendors-are-also-responsible-for-accessibility/#comment-2998</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Nyman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Feb 2006 11:52:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=210#comment-2998</guid>
		<description>Jeff L,

Thank you, it makes me very happy to hear that!
Also, I'm very glad that you share my opinion. :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jeff L,</p>
<p>Thank you, it makes me very happy to hear that!<br />
Also, I&#8217;m very glad that you share my opinion. <img src='http://www.robertnyman.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Jeff L</title>
		<link>http://www.robertnyman.com/2005/11/28/web-browser-vendors-are-also-responsible-for-accessibility/#comment-2996</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff L</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Feb 2006 04:09:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=210#comment-2996</guid>
		<description>Robert,

great article - I completely agree.  I hadn't been aware of the zoom feature in Opera until I recently saw a link to this article, tried it, loved it, love the fact that it's in IE7, and think that it should definitely become a standard feature.  

Let the designers and developers get back to do doing their thing, and lets the browsers worry about handling it properly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Robert,</p>
<p>great article - I completely agree.  I hadn&#8217;t been aware of the zoom feature in Opera until I recently saw a link to this article, tried it, loved it, love the fact that it&#8217;s in IE7, and think that it should definitely become a standard feature.  </p>
<p>Let the designers and developers get back to do doing their thing, and lets the browsers worry about handling it properly.</p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Robert&#8217;s talk &#187; IE 7 beta 2 -  a first test drive</title>
		<link>http://www.robertnyman.com/2005/11/28/web-browser-vendors-are-also-responsible-for-accessibility/#comment-2912</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert&#8217;s talk &#187; IE 7 beta 2 -  a first test drive</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2006 15:30:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=210#comment-2912</guid>
		<description>[...]  a doubt, this is the best feature of this release! I wrote about my opinion about this in Web browser vendors are also responsible for access [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...]  a doubt, this is the best feature of this release! I wrote about my opinion about this in Web browser vendors are also responsible for access [...]</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Robert Nyman</title>
		<link>http://www.robertnyman.com/2005/11/28/web-browser-vendors-are-also-responsible-for-accessibility/#comment-1883</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Nyman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2005 07:52:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=210#comment-1883</guid>
		<description>Chris,

Great! Glad it helps! :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris,</p>
<p>Great! Glad it helps! <img src='http://www.robertnyman.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.robertnyman.com/2005/11/28/web-browser-vendors-are-also-responsible-for-accessibility/#comment-1882</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Nov 2005 07:19:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=210#comment-1882</guid>
		<description>Hi Robert,
&#62; I wrote a script to check for it and to offer a fallback
&#62; alternative.
I know and use this script :-)
Thanks!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Robert,<br />
&gt; I wrote a script to check for it and to offer a fallback<br />
&gt; alternative.<br />
I know and use this script <img src='http://www.robertnyman.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
Thanks!!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Robert Nyman</title>
		<link>http://www.robertnyman.com/2005/11/28/web-browser-vendors-are-also-responsible-for-accessibility/#comment-1880</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Nyman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:39:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=210#comment-1880</guid>
		<description>Shane,

Thanks!

Jonny,

Good to see you here!
Absolutely, I agree, there's room for both. Therefore, I really wish every web browser manufacturer should implement the zoom feature; I'm sure the end users would like it.

And also, as you say, I don't think designers should do math to get it to work.

Steve,

Interesting to hear about sIFR!

Chris,

That's an interesting distinction; fonts set in pixels shouldn't scale no matter the web browser, while set in other units should. Maybe it should be like that when it comes to adapting to the text size setting, but I also opt for the zooming feature.

When it comes to the text size setting in IE for users that don't know about it, &lt;a href="http://www.robertnyman.com/2005/07/14/roblab-how-to-find-out-the-text-size-setting-in-an-ie-web-browser/" rel="nofollow"&gt;I wrote a script to check for it and to offer a fallback alternative&lt;/a&gt;.

Tommy,

Yes and no, it was just an example. But still, design is made in pixels to begin with. I still think most web site owners as well as end users would prefer if everything scaled accordingly, to get a more consistent visual experience.

Jules,

That's one way, although I always use &lt;code&gt;Ctrl&lt;/code&gt; and &lt;code&gt;+/-&lt;/code&gt; to  change the text size in Mozilla, &lt;code&gt;Command&lt;/code&gt; and &lt;code&gt;+/-&lt;/code&gt; in Safari and &lt;code&gt;+/-&lt;/code&gt; in Opera. I'm a keyboard shortcuts freak! :-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Shane,</p>
<p>Thanks!</p>
<p>Jonny,</p>
<p>Good to see you here!<br />
Absolutely, I agree, there&#8217;s room for both. Therefore, I really wish every web browser manufacturer should implement the zoom feature; I&#8217;m sure the end users would like it.</p>
<p>And also, as you say, I don&#8217;t think designers should do math to get it to work.</p>
<p>Steve,</p>
<p>Interesting to hear about sIFR!</p>
<p>Chris,</p>
<p>That&#8217;s an interesting distinction; fonts set in pixels shouldn&#8217;t scale no matter the web browser, while set in other units should. Maybe it should be like that when it comes to adapting to the text size setting, but I also opt for the zooming feature.</p>
<p>When it comes to the text size setting in <acronym title="Internet Explorer">IE</acronym> for users that don&#8217;t know about it, <a href="http://www.robertnyman.com/2005/07/14/roblab-how-to-find-out-the-text-size-setting-in-an-ie-web-browser/" rel="nofollow">I wrote a script to check for it and to offer a fallback alternative</a>.</p>
<p>Tommy,</p>
<p>Yes and no, it was just an example. But still, design is made in pixels to begin with. I still think most web site owners as well as end users would prefer if everything scaled accordingly, to get a more consistent visual experience.</p>
<p>Jules,</p>
<p>That&#8217;s one way, although I always use <code>Ctrl</code> and <code>+/-</code> to  change the text size in Mozilla, <code>Command</code> and <code>+/-</code> in Safari and <code>+/-</code> in Opera. I&#8217;m a keyboard shortcuts freak! <img src='http://www.robertnyman.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Jules</title>
		<link>http://www.robertnyman.com/2005/11/28/web-browser-vendors-are-also-responsible-for-accessibility/#comment-1878</link>
		<dc:creator>Jules</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2005 18:28:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=210#comment-1878</guid>
		<description>While I may not need the zoom feature (in any browser, not just Opera), I do appreciate that it exists and I like the way it operates. In IE and FF (I don't know about Safari and would like to hear from someone), when you want to &lt;strong&gt;increase&lt;/strong&gt; the text size, you hold the Control key and scroll &lt;strong&gt;down&lt;/strong&gt; (the reverse for decreasing text size) whereas Opera (IMHO) has got it right: scroll &lt;em&gt;up&lt;/em&gt; to &lt;em&gt;increase&lt;/em&gt; and visa versa.

Opera has been &lt;a href="http://pen-and-ink.ca/opera-is-free/" rel="nofollow"&gt;my favourite browser&lt;/a&gt; for many years and will likely stay on top for many more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I may not need the zoom feature (in any browser, not just Opera), I do appreciate that it exists and I like the way it operates. In <acronym title="Internet Explorer">IE</acronym> and FF (I don&#8217;t know about Safari and would like to hear from someone), when you want to <strong>increase</strong> the text size, you hold the Control key and scroll <strong>down</strong> (the reverse for decreasing text size) whereas Opera (IMHO) has got it right: scroll <em>up</em> to <em>increase</em> and visa versa.</p>
<p>Opera has been <a href="http://pen-and-ink.ca/opera-is-free/" rel="nofollow">my favourite browser</a> for many years and will likely stay on top for many more.</p>
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		<title>By: Tommy Olsson</title>
		<link>http://www.robertnyman.com/2005/11/28/web-browser-vendors-are-also-responsible-for-accessibility/#comment-1877</link>
		<dc:creator>Tommy Olsson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2005 17:45:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=210#comment-1877</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;a super-huge font in 150 pixels wide columns&lt;/blockquote&gt;
You shouldn't set a column width in pixels unless it only contains  images with a known pixel width. Pixel-sized text columns are evil, for the very reason you just outlined.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>a super-huge font in 150 pixels wide columns</p></blockquote>
<p>You shouldn&#8217;t set a column width in pixels unless it only contains  images with a known pixel width. Pixel-sized text columns are evil, for the very reason you just outlined.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://www.robertnyman.com/2005/11/28/web-browser-vendors-are-also-responsible-for-accessibility/#comment-1873</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2005 16:43:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=210#comment-1873</guid>
		<description>I like that firefox zooms any webpage, if I change the font-size.
But otherwise I think IE is right, because one pixel is one pixel. I mean if a webdeveloper (old-school) sets his font to 10px this means 10px and not 10 or 12 or 14...
I think that it's not correct to set the font-size in pixel since in this case the font should not zoom.
And often I have to set it in pixels since our coustomers don't know that they *can* change their font-size and have set their IE to extreme values. And it's not my job to explain my customers how to use their tools...

The whole subjects has many ifs and buts and no easy answers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like that firefox zooms any webpage, if I change the font-size.<br />
But otherwise I think <acronym title="Internet Explorer">IE</acronym> is right, because one pixel is one pixel. I mean if a webdeveloper (old-school) sets his font to 10px this means 10px and not 10 or 12 or 14&#8230;<br />
I think that it&#8217;s not correct to set the font-size in pixel since in this case the font should not zoom.<br />
And often I have to set it in pixels since our coustomers don&#8217;t know that they *can* change their font-size and have set their <acronym title="Internet Explorer">IE</acronym> to extreme values. And it&#8217;s not my job to explain my customers how to use their tools&#8230;</p>
<p>The whole subjects has many ifs and buts and no easy answers.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Williams</title>
		<link>http://www.robertnyman.com/2005/11/28/web-browser-vendors-are-also-responsible-for-accessibility/#comment-1871</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Williams</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:18:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=210#comment-1871</guid>
		<description>If you're broadcasting a PAL (european) signal, it always has 625 lines, irrespective of screen size - so that's why there's no need to worry about it. Same for NTSC, just fewer lines (525).

An interesting (or not?) fact I learned whilst fixing my blog to work in Opera is that its zoom feature cannot scale SiFR text, though regular flash appears to scale ok?

And I agree, Opera's implementation of page zoom is by far the best :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you&#8217;re broadcasting a PAL (european) signal, it always has 625 lines, irrespective of screen size - so that&#8217;s why there&#8217;s no need to worry about it. Same for NTSC, just fewer lines (525).</p>
<p>An interesting (or not?) fact I learned whilst fixing my blog to work in Opera is that its zoom feature cannot scale SiFR text, though regular flash appears to scale ok?</p>
<p>And I agree, Opera&#8217;s implementation of page zoom is by far the best <img src='http://www.robertnyman.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Jonny Axelsson</title>
		<link>http://www.robertnyman.com/2005/11/28/web-browser-vendors-are-also-responsible-for-accessibility/#comment-1870</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonny Axelsson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2005 15:14:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=210#comment-1870</guid>
		<description>There is a time and place for both. A moderate zoom (150% say, or 200%) may be better than scaling some components like text. For larger zoom (like 300%, not to speak of cranking all the way to 1000%) you get lost and have to do horizontal scrolling to read unless you have a huge screen.

So for large zoom or tiny screens (phones typically have 100-240 pixel width) we opt for reformatting the page to fit the screen instead of scaling it to unreadability. 

Pixels got a bad reputation for accessibility because if you coded with pixels you were stuck with them in IE. I'm not sure if that will be fixed in IE7. Pixels make sense when you want something on the same scale as an image (that except for SVG always are of pixel height and width).

But ems are useful too. If you have h1 {font-size: 1.6em} instead of 24px if the default body type is 15px, the 'h1' would automatically scale to the right size if you later change it to 20px (it would then be 32px) or to 10px (16px).

We, the browser makers, shouldn't have problems with fractional pixels and all the math stuff is something we should do and the web designers shouldn't have to worry about it. But there are some fairly tricky edge cases, and it is possible to be off by a pixel. For fonts it is a bit more complicated that that because not all fonts scale well. If a font only looks good at the fixed sizes of 13.33px and 16px, it won't look good either in 14px or in 14.5px.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a time and place for both. A moderate zoom (150% say, or 200%) may be better than scaling some components like text. For larger zoom (like 300%, not to speak of cranking all the way to 1000%) you get lost and have to do horizontal scrolling to read unless you have a huge screen.</p>
<p>So for large zoom or tiny screens (phones typically have 100-240 pixel width) we opt for reformatting the page to fit the screen instead of scaling it to unreadability. </p>
<p>Pixels got a bad reputation for accessibility because if you coded with pixels you were stuck with them in <acronym title="Internet Explorer">IE</acronym>. I&#8217;m not sure if that will be fixed in IE7. Pixels make sense when you want something on the same scale as an image (that except for <acronym title="Scalable Vector Graphics">SVG</acronym> always are of pixel height and width).</p>
<p>But ems are useful too. If you have h1 {font-size: 1.6em} instead of 24px if the default body type is 15px, the &#8216;h1&#8242; would automatically scale to the right size if you later change it to 20px (it would then be 32px) or to 10px (16px).</p>
<p>We, the browser makers, shouldn&#8217;t have problems with fractional pixels and all the math stuff is something we should do and the web designers shouldn&#8217;t have to worry about it. But there are some fairly tricky edge cases, and it is possible to be off by a pixel. For fonts it is a bit more complicated that that because not all fonts scale well. If a font only looks good at the fixed sizes of 13.33px and 16px, it won&#8217;t look good either in 14px or in 14.5px.</p>
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		<title>By: Shane Shepherd</title>
		<link>http://www.robertnyman.com/2005/11/28/web-browser-vendors-are-also-responsible-for-accessibility/#comment-1869</link>
		<dc:creator>Shane Shepherd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:58:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=210#comment-1869</guid>
		<description>@Robert: You make a good point.  Do you think the network stations, or even individual tv show producers worry about what kind of television their users are going to be using to watch?  I doubt it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Robert: You make a good point.  Do you think the network stations, or even individual tv show producers worry about what kind of television their users are going to be using to watch?  I doubt it.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Robert Nyman</title>
		<link>http://www.robertnyman.com/2005/11/28/web-browser-vendors-are-also-responsible-for-accessibility/#comment-1868</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Nyman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2005 14:50:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=210#comment-1868</guid>
		<description>Tommy,

The exact same things applies to zooming. You can set a default magnification that will be applied to all pages, eliminating the need to set it all the time.

This isn't about fear of losing control or not allowing the end users freedom; on the contrary. I think most users would prefer scaling the interface and elements accordingly, as opposed to having a super-huge font in 150 pixels wide columns.

I agree that using &lt;code&gt;%&lt;/code&gt; values are a well recommended approach, but also that end users should have the possibility to scale it as well. I'm not saying the web page should be zoomed when, for instance, the window is resized. What I'm saying is that zooming should be a given feature that is optional for end users who like what they see but want to make it bigger or smaller.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tommy,</p>
<p>The exact same things applies to zooming. You can set a default magnification that will be applied to all pages, eliminating the need to set it all the time.</p>
<p>This isn&#8217;t about fear of losing control or not allowing the end users freedom; on the contrary. I think most users would prefer scaling the interface and elements accordingly, as opposed to having a super-huge font in 150 pixels wide columns.</p>
<p>I agree that using <code>%</code> values are a well recommended approach, but also that end users should have the possibility to scale it as well. I&#8217;m not saying the web page should be zoomed when, for instance, the window is resized. What I&#8217;m saying is that zooming should be a given feature that is optional for end users who like what they see but want to make it bigger or smaller.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Tommy Olsson</title>
		<link>http://www.robertnyman.com/2005/11/28/web-browser-vendors-are-also-responsible-for-accessibility/#comment-1866</link>
		<dc:creator>Tommy Olsson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Nov 2005 13:29:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.robertnyman.com/?p=210#comment-1866</guid>
		<description>The main advantage of using &lt;code&gt;em&lt;/code&gt; and &lt;code&gt;%&lt;/code&gt; is that they are relative to the user's default font setting and to the window size, respectively.

Someone who needs larger text can set a larger default, and your &lt;code&gt;em&lt;/code&gt;-based layout will respect that, whereas a pixel-based will not. So what if you can zoom it? Why should you have to zoom everything every time? Surely it should be enough to do it once, by specifying a larger base font size?

This sounds like the usual whingeing from old-school print designers who lament the lack of 'control' on the Web. The users are in control; that's what makes Web publishing different (and in some respects more difficult) than print design. If you can't cope with that, there's always PDF...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The main advantage of using <code>em</code> and <code>%</code> is that they are relative to the user&#8217;s default font setting and to the window size, respectively.</p>
<p>Someone who needs larger text can set a larger default, and your <code>em</code>-based layout will respect that, whereas a pixel-based will not. So what if you can zoom it? Why should you have to zoom everything every time? Surely it should be enough to do it once, by specifying a larger base font size?</p>
<p>This sounds like the usual whingeing from old-school print designers who lament the lack of &#8216;control&#8217; on the Web. The users are in control; that&#8217;s what makes Web publishing different (and in some respects more difficult) than print design. If you can&#8217;t cope with that, there&#8217;s always <acronym title="Portable Document Format">PDF</acronym>&#8230;</p>
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